Wednesday, August 6, 2008

A choice

God gave us a free choice because there is no significance to love that knows no alternative.
James C. Dobson


God has no need of marionettes. He pays men the compliment of allowing them to live without him if they choose. But if they live without him in this life, they must also live without him in the next.
Leon Morris


Our destiny is not determined for us, but it is determined by us. Man’s free will is part of God’s sovereign will. We have freedom to take which course we choose, but not freedom to determine the end of that choice. God makes clear what he desires, we must choose, and the result of the choice is not the inevitableness of law, but the inevitableness of God.
Oswald Chambers


If man lost his liberty, he would be disqualified for membership in the kingdom of God. Not even God could build a society of love out of puppets or robots. Therefore, he never defeats himself by taking away freedom of choice from man.
Kirby Page


The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time.
Thomas Jefferson


We are only free when the Son sets us free; but we are free to choose whether or not we will be made free.
Oswald Chambers


Without free will, man would not be created “in the image of God.” With it, he has the power to defy God’s wishes and to bring misery on himself and others.
C. S. Lewis


"God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go either wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong; I cannot. If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having."
C.S. Lewis


"Without free will, how shall God judge the world? Without grace, how shall God save the world?"
Unknown


"God draws,but He draws the willing one."
John Chrysostom


"The elect are whosoever will, and the non-elect, whosoever won't."
Henry Beecher



"He who created us without our help will not save us without our consent."
Augustine





I went to an old friend's grave today. As I knelt down to look upon it, I started to cry. I didn't cry over their death. But I cried over where they might be right now, and my heart broke. What broke my heart even more is the fact that, if calvinism is correct, God is smiling and pleased that this person is probably in hell. Why? Because he obviously put them there, against anything they could have chosen.

Why, calvinist, does God find enjoyment in punishing and condemning those to hell for disobedience with whom he forced into in the first place?



The more I think on it, the angrier and more hardened I become towards the calvinist beliefs and the god they serve.

6 comments:

Joelseph said...

And the more you comment on it, the more apparent it is that you don't understand.

Forgive me for being blunt, babe, but it's true.

Which calvinist did you ever hear saying that man doesn't have free will? You're not understanding the relationship between God's sovereignty and free-will. I don't fully understand it either, but you don't see me blogging my hatred for anything.

On the other hand you also have to forgive the calvinist for not wanting to serve the 'cosmic Barney' god that sits on the throne saying "Oh please, oh please, accept me."

You're quickly going way to the other extreme, and it's not good. As much as I utterly hate to have friction with you, I don't want to sit idle while you paint God as weak.

Joelseph said...

You're also focusing WAY too much on man.

Joseph said...

You stated earlier that man is fallible...which means all those quotes are subject and called into question. And for that matter, I've got all of church history from Augustine (who Calvin was greatly influenced by, and Calvin would be considered an Augustian, and that quote is probably taken out of context) until now backing me on Calvinism. So I can list quotes also. But that doesn't do us any good.

And I've never said God is smiling and pleased over the fact they might be in hell. You're constant constant constant demonizing of the God I believe doesn't make any sense. I agree that He takes no delight in the death of wicked, that He does not inflict suffering upon men willingly (Ezek and Lam), but I also agree with this verse,

1 Sam. 2:25 "...but they would not listen to the voice of their father, for it was the will of the Lord to put them to death."

You are refusing to accept scripture in it's entirety cause you're believing lies about the God I serve, and these lies hurt you emotionally, therefor you conclude, they must be wrong.

He didn't force them into it, you're completely forgetting that it is man who sins and sins willingly. It's like you just completely ignore all the the verses I gave on radical depravity, just tossed them out the window cause they conclude the God is cruel.

Forget that man is abosuletly evil, forget that there is rape, murder, incest, beheadings, torture, hatred, gossip, contempt, selfishness, wrath, anger, lust, homosexuality, hatred of God, child sacrifice, prostitution of seven year old boys and girls, children soldiers who murder at the age of 6, absolute selfishness and unconcern for their fellow man.

Evil is rampant and everywhere, we are believers and we sin and don't even realize it we're so deep in it. But God is cruel for sending them to hell? B/c He doesn't redeem all them?

Do you have any idea how Holy God is? Do you have any idea how evil man is? When was the last time you wept over sin? Have you ever?

Have you ever seen your wretchedness? Do you have any idea what it means to sin against God? Any?

How can God be cruel and unjust b/c He sends those to hell who go about their entire existence, every breath hating Him? Sinning against Him openly? They know the truth and they supress it!

Don't you understand!? Man is evil!!! EVIL!!!

Why does it not bother you that God elected demons to go to hell? Why does it not bother you that Satan is in hell and never has a chance for redemption? He never has the opportunity to repent? Ever thought about that? Of course not. It doesn't bother you one bit that there are angels who will never even have the chance, the offer of salvation, and were cast into hell eternally b/c of one sin. One sin that sent them there. Only one.

Yet man, sins constantly, and He has the Gospel offer given to him, and knows enough about God to deny Him, to supress the truth. He is w/o excuse. Every breath is an opportunity to repent, yet he does not. He is as Hebrews says, nelgecting so great a salvation! The demons of hell will never even have the chance. And the question is asked, what will happen to those who do neglect it? What judgment awaits them?

Should you be more concerned over the "injustice" done to Satan and his angels? They don't have a change. Yet it bothers you more that man will end up in hell. Why? Cause your view of man is too high. And you're view of God is too low.

That's why. That's the only reason.

Kristi said...

Joel,

you asked me to read this knowing you had a smile on your face.



Can't do that, sorry.

We'll talk tonight.

Kristi said...

Joe,


This is going to be the last time I 'argue' back with you because at this point I'm only finding this whole thing useless and, quite frankly, upsetting. I've felt more attacked (though I KNOW that is not the intentions of either you or Joel) these past few days than anything. You don't know me, yet you've accused me of a false faith and false view of everything I believe. I know my God, I know my relationship with Jesus Christ, and I am so thankful for the growth He has allowed me to experience in Him. I WILL respond to a few comments you made in your response...and respond if you wish...Keep posting comments...but I'm done talking back. Because, for some reason, satan really tries to attack me, and every time I go to even deal with this stuff, I just break down and cry. And I KNOW it's of satan (not calvinism, but the emotional insecurities and problems that have derived from this). And I'm just done. Joel and I are talking about it tonight, but I'd rather never have a discussion about it again so long as I live. I've become so emotionally and spiritually sick from it.






And I've never said God is smiling and pleased over the fact they might be in hell.


Does not God smile when He is well pleased?



You are refusing to accept scripture in it's entirety cause you're believing lies about the God I serve, and these lies hurt you emotionally, therefor you conclude, they must be wrong.

My emotions are telling me this is wrong? Incorrect. My relationship with Christ, the God I've known for years is bringing me into a spiritual uneasiness with this stuff. God tells us in James that He will give us wisdom when we ask. I trust with all my heart that He keeps true to His promises. Well I asked. I begged. I pleaded for wisdom in this. I believe He's given it. I don't believe this because my emotions got the best of me.


He didn't force them into it,
He gave them ABSOLUTELY no chioce. None. Whatsoever. To not give someone a choice is to force. I see no other alternative, here.


you're completely forgetting that it is man who sins and sins willingly.


According to your beliefs, however, man sins willingly because God made Him to do such. From the beginning of the world God desired a relationship with man, so He created Him. If God did NOT give man a choice, then the only other reason that man would sin would be because God forced Him to do such. Why is it God created us with a free-will to sin, yet not a free-will to choose Him? That doesn't make much sense. You're basically saying that God created us in sin.



Evil is rampant and everywhere, we are believers and we sin and don't even realize it we're so deep in it. But God is cruel for sending them to hell? B/c He doesn't redeem all them?

No, God doesn't send anyone to hell. We CHOOSE hell by living in sin. THAT makes perfect sense. And it makes biblical, in line with the character of God sense. God doesn't redeem them all because all don't choose to be redeemed. Not because God decided He didn't want to. THAT is cruel.


Do you have any idea how Holy God is?


No, because my sinful, selfish mind cannot fathom it.


Do you have any idea how evil man is?

In comparison to God, again, I cannot fathom. I know it's deeper than I most often realize, though.


When was the last time you wept over sin? Have you ever?

More times than I can count. I have laid myself on my bathroom floor for long periods of time, in utter despair over the heartbreak I have caused my Savior in my sin.



How can God be cruel and unjust b/c He sends those to hell who go about their entire existence, every breath hating Him? Sinning against Him openly? They know the truth and they supress it!


But they only supress it because God made them supress it. God shut them out to it, not even giving them an opportunity to receive it. All according to you. So you tell me how God could NOT be cruel in all that. Remember; according to you, God designed certain men SPECIFICALLY TO SIN AGAINST HIM. It would be hypocritical for God to be angry with those men, because He caused them to do it in the first place.


Why does it not bother you that God elected demons to go to hell?


Did He? Or did they choose that?


Why does it not bother you that Satan is in hell and never has a chance for redemption? He never has the opportunity to repent?

Because He chose it.


Yet man, sins constantly, and He has the Gospel offer given to him, and knows enough about God to deny Him, to supress the truth. He is w/o excuse. Every breath is an opportunity to repent, yet he does not. He is as Hebrews says, nelgecting so great a salvation!

WAIT. Wait wait wait. He ONLY supresses it because God MADE Him supress it. You just contradicted yourself and your entire belief system. If man is completely 100%incapable of coming to God and repenting, you cannot sit there and talk about how evil man is for rejecting God, because by your beliefs God made him do it! Man can't help it! God made him! Therefore, man's not really evil at all. God is. Because God is the one that caused the man to sin and reject Him in the first place.



Cause your view of man is too high. And you're view of God is too low.

That's why. That's the only reason.



You've got me all wrong. And frankly, it's insulting. God is above everything I could possibly imagine. I constantly CONSTANTLY tell people that I am the lowest of lows, and am shocked that God would ever even consider using someone so low and sinful like me for His glory. I am in shock every day that I could actually be used for the kingdom being so worthless in my sin. I don't have a perfect view of God and man, because I AM a human and I am NOT perfect and I fail every day to comprehend the glory of God and the contrast difference between He and I. Yet I do know that my God is holy, He is perfect, He is true. I ALSO know that He is love. My GOD is love. He is so much love that I fail to even grasp it and understand it. The reason His sacrifice means SO much to me is because He allowed me to partake in it and receive it. He allowed me to come to Him, as I was, sinful and disgusting, wretched and gross, and receive eternal life and grace, having my sins forgotten and wiped away. Not because He made me do it. He didn't force me into a relationship with Him. He didn't drag me by the hair into His love and grace. He accepted me in when I realized I needed Him most, and granted me eternal life. THAT is why His love means so much to me. If I started believing as you believed, love would lose all meaning and beauty. Love would become something I don't know anymore. Love would mean obligation, not choice. And everything, I mean EVERYTHING, I've known about God would diminish. And I know that if I have been wrong for the past six years of my new life in Christ about something THIS BIG, there is no way I could have had a constant growing relationship with Him as I have today.

I know my God, and I know my relationship with Him. I know that i love Him. I know I want to be like Him in everything I do, every word i speak. I know I want to serve Him with my life and do everything I can to bring Him glory. He is my everything, my love, my life. And I would give up everything I have to be with Him always. He means the world to me. He IS the world to me. And I'm always open to rebuke and chastisement of those that love God and love me, but I don't know you. And I can't take to heart anything you say to me, because I don't see you as someone in my life that I can spiritually trust. That is NOTHING against you. And from what I can see, you love God, and Joel has GREAT things to say about you. You seem like a guy after God's own heart. But again, I don't know you. And therefore I cannot trust you as someone to rebuke me in the faith and set me straight. God can do that. God's word can do that. People that I spiritually look up to and love can do that. But not you, I'm sorry.



And like I said before, I'm done. I'm finished with all of this. I'm going back to writing blogs about stuff that's much more useless than all of this, lol. I've made a decision on my beliefs. I'm firmer in my beliefs. And there's no convincing me otherwise.


Thanks for everything, though. I appreciate your input.

Joseph said...

Ok.